The Tyee: For Our Own Good

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3/2/2005

views

One = continent, one=20 country?

SUBSCRIBE<= /A>

'For Our Own Good, Give = Canada=20 Away'

The 'deep = integrationists'=20 plan one happy continent, but we must teach the little=20 ones.

Tue., Feb. 22,=20 2005

By Murray=20 Dobbin

The Tyee.ca

As Canadians watch their daily news =97 the same sex = marriage=20 debate, the continuing saga of equalization payments and the fight = over=20 splitting the Department of Foreign Affairs and International = Trade in two=20 =97 the future of the country is being decided elsewhere by = unelected=20 corporate power brokers.

This particular future is called "deep integration" and is = backed by=20 the most powerful business groups, think tanks and foundations in = the=20 country. The most recent manifestation of this betrayal of Canada = is=20 called the Task Force on the Future of North America. Its leaked = report=20 shows the plan in its most refined form to date.

The "team" backing this annexation initiative is politically=20 ambidextrous, which signals the elites' unanimity. Two of the = heavy=20 hitters on the Task Force are John Manley, quite likely the next = leader of=20 the federal Liberals, and Michael Wilson, former Tory finance = minister. It=20 also includes former Quebec Premier Pierre Mark Johnson. Two of = the six=20 Canadian members are energy CEOs =97 just to indicate to George = Bush that=20 the oil companies run Canada, too.

The fact that Canadians are more anti-American now that any = time in=20 the past 50 years has had no impact on the plans of the = annexationists in=20 our midst. It doesn't matter that huge majorities of Canadians = want=20 nothing to do with more integration with the rogue nation to the = south of=20 us. The democratic imperative is well and truly dead amongst the = high=20 rollers who, having failed to meet the competitive challenge of = free=20 trade, have adopted a new slogan: If you can't beat 'em, join = em.

Water, power, culture on the table

The deep integration initiative was publicly launched in = early 2002=20 with an opinion piece in the Globe and Mail by the C.D. = Howe=20 Institute's Wendy Dobson. A former staffer in Paul Martin's = finance=20 department, she described the thrust of the initiative this way: = "Instead=20 of waiting to be told what's expected of us [by the Americans], = Canadian=20 governments and industry should prepare for this possibility in a=20 proactive way." She discussed the "Big Idea": that in order to get = the=20 Americas' attention we should give them everything we think they = might=20 want and then pray they give us real, unimpeded access to their=20 market.

The Task Force =97 co-chaired by John Manley =97 is = trilateral and=20 reports not to governments but to the Council on Foreign Affairs = (CFA),=20 one of the most influential think tanks in Washington. The CFA is = one of=20 three co-sponsors of the Task Force along with the Canadian = Council of=20 Chief Executives (CCCE) and the Mexican Council on Foreign = Affairs. The=20 ubiquitous Tom d'Aquino of the CCCE (formerly the BCNI) is a=20 vice-chair.

There isn't much new in the summary report of the Task = Force's first=20 meeting, held last October in Toronto. But it does focus in on the = most=20 critical features of what Canada's business leaders want. Among = the most=20 controversial: eliminating the current NAFTA exemptions for = culture and=20 certain sectors of agriculture. Another is expanding the egregious = energy=20 provisions of NAFTA =97 which guarantee the U.S. an = ever-increasing=20 percentage of our gas and oil production regardless of Canadian = needs =97 to=20 other resources, including water. Messrs. d'Aquino and Manley also = want to=20 offer the Americans the same deal on electricity that they already = have=20 with natural gas =97 through a North American electricity = grid.

The initiative is driven by the post-9/11 geopolitical = atmosphere and=20 was first launched just months after the attack. The report states = plainly=20 that "security considerations trump other issues." The thinking = behind=20 this annexationist plan suggests that the only way Canada will not = be hurt=20 by U.S. security concerns is to adopt them as our own =97 and = redefine=20 ourselves as North Americans.

Kids to learn continental virtue

Indeed one of the most perverse parts of the plan would see = the=20 education system hijacked to implant in the minds of young = Canadians the=20 idea that they are, actually, North Americans: "Participants = agreed that=20 progress on this front will require effort within the education = system=20 [including] supplements to the standard curriculum."

Talk about social engineering. Thomas Axworthy, another Task = force=20 member, and a long time advocate of creeping annexation, is going = to=20 "work" on this idea. A North American passport would also be part = of the=20 effort to erase any vestige of Canadian identity and replace it = with one=20 that would inevitably be American =97 not North American.

Until recently, Bay Street's annexation initiative has been = almost=20 exclusively a private affair =97 the CCCE, think tanks, business = columnists=20 and now the Task Force. But the proponents believe that the time = is ripe=20 to engage the three governments and make the process a formal = political=20 project.

In January the CCCE's d'Aquino initiated news coverage of the = idea of=20 a trilateral summit of Bush, Martin and Mexican President Vincente = Fox.=20 D'Aquino claimed that Bush was interested in calling a summit this = year on=20 "the scope and extent of a major initiative to forge a new = economic and=20 security partnership within North America."

This is the most dangerous development in the annexation push = so far.=20 Conventional wisdom has suggested that the U.S. was simply not = interested.=20 If Bush is suddenly willing to talk about the idea there is only = one=20 reason: Behind the scenes our quisling economic elite has promised = the=20 U.S. such huge concessions on security, energy and water that they = can't=20 afford to ignore them.

Sound the alarm.

Murray Dobbin writes a regular State of the Nation column = for The=20 Tyee and is the author of Paul Martin: CEO for=20 Canada?

GET THE=20 TYEE BY EMAIL

Frank, 2/22/2005 11:56:57 AM, = writes:

Just as we all = said would=20 happen. These guys deny their hidden agenda even as they have = meetings to=20 discuss that same agenda. If there's one issue that rubs my = rhubarb its=20 this one.=20

They talk about the high degree of nationalism as "proof" that = our=20 sovereignity and culture aren't endangered at the same time they = work to=20 remove the last supports. Eventually Canada will just be a state = of mind=20 because every real decision will be made south of the border or by = south-of-the-border types.=20

The corporate suits in this country are not Canadians, they're=20 quislings. And Tom d'Aquino is the biggest rat of them all. Let's = hope=20 their political flunky, the Conservatives, never get elected again = so they=20 can complete the handover of 1988.

Truman Green, 2/22/2005 11:58:37 AM,=20 writes:

Many thanks to Mr. Dobbin = for=20 outlining this sinister trend. Hopefully, the majority Canadian = sentiment=20 will quash the aspirations of the North Americanists. I suspect = that the=20 Canadians who are engaged in these Machievellian pursuits believe = that=20 they are acting to head off more overt American annexationism, but = it's a=20 very dangerous game.

KWL, = 2/22/2005=20 12:19:59 PM, writes:

How about these traitors = just leave=20 the country and live in the US for good if they love it so=20 much?

The REAL barking = mad fox=20 channel, 2/22/2005 1:03:23 PM, writes:

Aw, I dunno. Inviting all = those=20 states that want to separate from Jesusland to come up and join us = doesn't=20 sound so bad. I'm sure there's a hefty population of Australians, = New=20 Zealanders and Brits who wouldn't mind joining us either. Or in = the rest=20 of the world for that matter. Maybe it's time to build a new = worldwide=20 country of people who are alligned with a particular set of values = that=20 doesn't include domination, slavery, exploitation or other forms = of=20 planet-killing.

Ron Y, = 2/22/2005=20 1:23:59 PM, writes:

Is the EU a bad=20 idea?

Eddy Haskel, = 2/22/2005=20 1:32:06 PM, writes:

I always dreamed of the = day that=20 Canada annexes Alaska. It all makes sense with my Gulf Stream = Project and=20 eventual exspansion into Northern Russia. The world will be at our = mercy.=20 In other words... dream on dreamers.

The REAL barking mad fox channel, 2/22/2005 = 2:09:05 PM,=20 writes:

Nope, RonY, Canada = joining the EU is=20 a great idea.

Beside the = Legis. I=20 sat down and cried., 2/22/2005 2:12:54 PM, writes:

I can't take any more of = this=20 political treachery.

Frank,=20 2/22/2005 2:30:21 PM, writes:

The Tyee better watch it, = the=20 anti-Canadians are always on the lookout for anything that smells = like=20 anti-Americanism.=20

You can almost hear them now whining that opposition to deep=20 integration is just typical anti-Americanism, envy etc.=20

As someone else said, I wish they'd just leave. =

Bailey, 2/22/2005 3:21:35 PM, = writes:

Except in = banking, I don't=20 see integration really taking place. I mean, all these odd = clandestine=20 political affiliations popping up around here lately are mainly = about=20 money. The chance to grab up the commons. If you can own the water = or the=20 air you're in a position to tell your customers 'pay me or die'. = Then=20 charge whatever you want.=20

Politically the picture is very different. Much more likely, = comes=20 crunch time, that we fall apart into twelve or fourteen small = Balkanized=20 countries. Quebec would like to try to stand alone, nobody would = want to=20 join Ontario, but California, New Mexico and Nevada are a natural. = BC,=20 Alberta, Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Alaska ditto. The prairies, = Dakotas=20 and Illinois, New England and the Maritimes, The Midwest, Central = East=20 Coast, two or three in the South, Mexico and Texas, The Isthmus = countries=20 around the canal.

People are far too bloody minded these days to show any hope of = unity.=20 The financial wizards see an opportunity to use new technologies = to rob=20 and steal. When people finally wake up to this, politicians will = be hard=20 pressed to find any support for anything from anyone, so low will = be their=20 trustworthiness.

The center will not hold, and as always, the great will have to = become=20 smaller until things can be reorganized. Except that according to=20 economist Jane Jacobs, reorganization may take a thousand years or = so.=20

Just in time to renegotiate the BC Rail = deal.

Fi, 2/22/2005 3:26:10 PM, = writes:

The flurry of = protest from=20 Americans (some living here) against the same sex bill really = riles me...=20 one woman said "America is a great country because of it's MORAL = code",=20 bahahahaha, and that Canada was falling apart morally. Ahhhhh!!!!! = NOTHING=20 whips my temper into a frenzy more than this kind of thing. Get = the heck=20 out then!! But interesting in a way, because as much as some = Americans=20 think the influence only flows one way, this is proving that = clearly it=20 doesn't.

anarcho, = 2/22/2005 3:33:39=20 PM, writes:

Deep integration is more = like deep=20 penetration sans the KY Jelly! Our ruling class are nothing but a = bunch of=20 compradores, ready to sell us for a handful of shrinking Yanqui = Dollah. I=20 am not one for nationalism, but I think wherever these swine go = they=20 should have a hoard of people shouting "traitor" and "'sell-out" = at=20 them.

Mel from Calgary, = 2/22/2005=20 4:17:06 PM, writes:

The softwood lumber = dispute was=20 supposed to be solved by the Free Trade Agreement but the = Americans keep=20 dragging this along despite losing time and again. The Americans = have no=20 intention of honouring any international agreement. They will take = what=20 they want and ignore the rest.

The question for John Manley, Michael Wilson and the rest of = the gang.=20 In this age of globelisation why do they only want to do business = with one=20 customer?=20

China is the next frontier lets go after their=20 business.

Peter Dimitrov, = 2/22/2005=20 4:57:38 PM, writes:

I too am not for = narrow-minded=20 'nationalism' , but most certainly I'm for a positive vision of = Canadian=20 soverignty.=20

Regretably, we have, except for the Charter of Rights, a = colonial=20 constitution that allows for elitist Executive Federalism. The = Prime=20 Minister's office , the Premier's office, and a tiny corporate = oligarchy=20 and their think tanks, have captured 'government' and they do what = they=20 will.....the frame of an elitist , low-level democratic structure = is=20 constitutionally in place, upon which is imposed a continentalist=20 capitalist frame.=20

Yes, those selling out this country and comprising its = soverignty are,=20 in my view quislings and compradores.=20

The only hope, and it is a faint hope, is if the people of = Canada wake=20 up, proclaim that soverignty vests inherently in themselves as a = people=20 and not the Crown, and democratically establish a Constitutional=20 Constituent Assemby...to democratically change the 'rules'=20

Otherwise, frankly, I'm extremely pessimistic about the future = of this=20 country...the current 'rules / 'frame' has no political space for = a=20 credible soverigntist alternative. We, the people continually get=20 brainwashed by the media to think that issues such as the = 'sponsorship=20 scandal', 'auditor-general reports', and a myriad other "issues" = ..are=20 what constitutes the "news"....and activists devote so much time = and=20 energy fighting this or that matter - which in many cases is = needed .=20

BUT, What is also needed is a 'constructive' not destructive = vision for=20 the left in Canada, a constructive vision of a 'soverign' Canada, = and that=20 sure as hell isn't coming from any of the mainstream political = parties -=20 only the Bloq has a vision for a soverign Quebec outside the = Canadian=20 federal constitutional 'rules'.=20

In part, that's how I see it anyway. The trend line continues = to show=20 Canada has nothing but a supplier of oil, gas, minerals, forest = products,=20 ...and later water to U. Sam. ...all this facilitated by the=20 quislings...until a soverign Canada...is but an empty,gutted out = shell,=20 where the majority of Canadians are poor tenants in their own = land.=20

Coyote, 2/22/2005 = 9:05:07 PM,=20 writes:

"Regretably, we have, = except for the=20 Charter of Rights, a colonial constitution that allows for elitist = Executive Federalism. The Prime Minister's office , the Premier's = office,=20 and a tiny corporate oligarchy and their think tanks, have = captured=20 'government' and they do what they will.....the frame of an = elitist ,=20 low-level democratic structure is constitutionally in place, upon = which is=20 imposed a continentalist capitalist frame." wrote Peter D.=20

A quick peek in. I have an early morning.=20

I agree with much opinion here, but especially Anarcho and = Peter D.,=20 who get the complexity and interconnectedness of the national and=20 internationalist issues, with the most depth, I think.=20

The global movement towards a coming together of the world = community of=20 nations is, I think, an irreversible process, with many complex = economic,=20 political and human dimensions driving it, and the quicker we come = to=20 understand that, the better we will be able to respond = appropriately, in a=20 way that protects our interests. What is being fought over = essentially is,=20 the terms and conditions upon which we form our new global = relationships,=20 and the ideological and social basis upon which that will occur.=20

Will it be "their" way, the way of global corporatism and their = elitist=20 models? Their way, in which the great and aggressive nationalist = centres=20 like Imperial USA cannibalize upon the rest of us, and in league = with=20 global corporate capitalism, play us off one against the other, = with their=20 divide and rule preoccupations. Or will new, powerful and = progressive=20 movements of the people emerge, forging global alliances around = trade=20 unions, women's movements, a progressive environmentalism and = other=20 people's organizations, opening up a new direction of egalitarion = rather=20 than elitist opportunities, in which the race is not to the = bottom, but=20 towards a more progressive sustainability?=20

There's no question "they", the big corporations and their = bootlicker=20 political hacks, like much of our own national leadership, have = the jump=20 on us, and that the matter is already in the process of being = decided over=20 our heads.=20

Personally, I am hopeful, and there are some grounds for being = so,=20 arising from a slowly changing national mood, but it is difficult = in=20 current conditions to maintain a constant positiveness, no doubt. = And=20 there is no guarantee "the people" will win-, at least in the = short run,=20 or the long for that matter.=20

History is such a goddamn, complex, and grinding process, is it = not?=20

It is important to fight on however, as best we=20 can.

lynn, 2/22/2005 = 9:28:20 PM,=20 writes:

I agree, anarcho, = screaming "traitor"=20 would at least make me feel better. We need a Zorro symbolic mark = of=20 betrayal for quislings.

allan,=20 2/22/2005 10:39:43 PM, writes:

Will it be sold as = 'installing=20 democracy' or just a simple business deal?

If I say no to this plan am I then a terrorist, a freedom = fighter or=20 just a malcontent?

Ron = Y,=20 2/22/2005 11:51:33 PM, writes:

Coyote: "Global = corporatism" is evil=20 because of its (lack of good) intentions, not because it is global = or=20 corporate. After all, Amnesty International is an example of a = globally=20 focused organization with a centralized, unelected locus of power. = I'm=20 relatively optimistic about the future, because the basic nature = of people=20 is to choose to feel good about themselves. Given the choice, = people=20 almost never choose to behave monstrously. It seems to me that = practical=20 idealism demands that we come up with more socially positive = alternatives=20 for consumers. Someone is buying the "green" toilet paper, right?=20 (Non-practical idealism decries the entire concept of toilet = paper, but=20 then loses its potential audience and marginalizes itself.) That's = question A. Question B is, do state arrangements really matter = anymore?=20 Given the subsuming of political will to the needs of capital, = does it=20 actually matter if North America balkanizes or becomes a unified = United=20 North America? Public oversight matters, but we can't be overly=20 sentimental about the exact forms that are suitable for today's = needs.=20

allan, 2/23/2005 9:58:44 = AM,=20 writes:

Ron Y., while I can = certainly wax=20 sentimental about the our current place in the world and the = history that=20 sets out Canadas uniqueness, it shouldn't take a super patriot to = realize=20 that becoming a part of the most brutal, paranoid and dangerous = regime in=20 the world is not my idea of political, economic or rational = wisdom.

Your primary view of life appears to be filtered through the = narrow=20 economic prism of capitalist wants (let's be frank here), = greed>.

While I won't even quibble about your inane argument that = balkanization=20 leads to unity, I can't sit back without commenting on this = ludicrous=20 suggesting that "public oversight" committees, no doubt filled = with=20 senators and other feathered nesters are going to look out for the = peons=20 that won't have a fucking say in the smashing of our country. At = the risk=20 of being seen as overly sensitive, I would suggest if that is what = you=20 want, why not head south now and get an early start in your new = life.

But if you do, watch out for any of those military or = contractor=20 interrogators who have been working in Iraq, Cuba and who knows = where=20 else.

Word on the street is they are quite into behaving = "monstrously" and=20 they don't seem to need much motivation.

Ron Erwin, 2/23/2005 10:34:11 AM,=20 writes:

I support a North = American economoc=20 union similar to that of the EU. We have to stand up to the EU in=20 strength. They are trying to rip-off North America ( KYOTO , World = Court=20 ect. ) I am not going to move away to the USA. I hope to change = Canada to=20 something more conservative, similar to the USA. =

veritas, 2/23/2005 11:43:30 AM, = writes:

Maybe we should = learn from=20 the Iraqi resistance how to deal with our own=20 traitors?

allan, = 2/23/2005 12:21:57=20 PM, writes:

Ron Erwin, please explain = "We have to=20 stand up to the EU. Canada was an early signer of Kyota, World = Court (and=20 just what etc?) and the Americans remain hostile to both.

Stay if you wish, but please quit making a fool of yourself. = The vast=20 majority of Canadians would shake their heads in dismay at your = fawning=20 desire for a bloodied greenback.

Conservative? John Diefenbacher would be rolling in his grave = having to=20 listen to such tripe from someone who calls himself a=20 Conservative.

lynn, = 2/23/2005=20 1:23:44 PM, writes:

Most of us aren't = surprised by this=20 but it is devastating to read nonetheless.( I mean, the sale of BC = Rail,=20 Accenture embedded in BC Hydro, Maximus etc. are all helping = towards=20 fulfilling this devious dream). We already are deeply integrated, = deeply=20 in denial as well.

I heard Seymour Hersch the other day saying he now believes = there is no=20 stopping the neo-con agenda. They do not listen, nor allow = disagreement.=20 They are a machine. A hint of disagreement by a journalist exiles = you from=20 the information. He believes that Bush will attack Iran by summer = despite=20 what he says, that he will create a crisis, more sanctions and = then say=20 Iran has broken the sanctions.

As governments exile us from the information, they become, in = effect,=20 our enemy.

I try to remain hopeful like Coyote, in agreement with Dimitrov = that=20 sovereignty must find a new ground, vested in the people, not the = Crown,=20 since the Crown seems infested by a lot of treasonous pirates = these days.

And allan, if you say "no" to this deal and it ends with a = bang. Bang:=20 You're a terrorist. If you say "no" to this deal and it ends with = a=20 "whimper", the civility of a mere business deal, (which seems the = custom=20 these days) you just lose your shirt and your soul, and ...yes, = you're=20 still a terrorist. Or at least an insurgent.

Coyote, 2/23/2005 2:00:45 PM, = writes:

I wish I had = more time here,=20 because this is a really important discussion, in my view-, but = aye, I've=20 gotten myself too damned busy again.=20

"As governments exile us from the information, they become, in = effect,=20 our enemy." , which slam dunks it, in an excellent wee piece by = Lynn, who=20 says concisely what would take me 2-3 times longer.=20

Nationalist or internationalist, what Canadian in their right = mind=20 would want to become a part of the US Empire, especially at this = juncture=20 in history? I'd personally rather be a part of the EU, and they = have their=20 own problem set, or even a union with Latin America sans the US. = They are=20 the enemy at the gates fer chissake, for just about the entire = balance of=20 the world! Save for the Alliance of The Bribed around Iraq, which = includes=20 much of old Eastern Europe, and it would seem, at least, Official = Canada=20 and its bootlicker ruling class. They have always been short on = vision, or=20 any capacity for independant wisdom. It is their history, which is = unfortunately mirrored onto all of us.=20

(We are Poland on the eve of the rise of Nazi Germany, or even=20 Czechoslovakia. Which is more the vision of continental or = hemispheric=20 unity the US has. They are the Reich to which all must bend the=20 knee.)

Ron Y, 2/23/2005 = 2:34:41 PM,=20 writes:

Allan, you've misread my = post. I said=20 that political will at all levels of government has been subsumed = to the=20 needs of capital. This is an observation -- indeed, a cliche -- = not an=20 endorsement. Hence, it may not matter if North America becomes one = nation=20 or many fragments (and nowhere did I advance the suggestion, = rightly=20 termed inane, that aggregation leads to schism). As for heading = south,=20 we're already there buddy! We're not scrambling to maintain = Canada's=20 independence -- it's gone, sans even the ritual sanction of being = able to=20 vote for their congress. Extrication of Canadians from the = sordidness of=20 the current American empire is going to take more than merely = deciding not=20 to join their common market. Coyote: I think we're closer to being = France=20 than Poland or Czechoslovakia; they won't need to destroy us=20 physically.

The REAL = barking mad=20 fox channel, 2/23/2005 4:13:02 PM, writes:

The comparison to Vichy = France is apt=20 when one considers the collaborators, but as for the 'need' to = destroy us=20 physically -- no, but it's happening all the = same.

Coyote, 2/23/2005 4:36:34 PM, = writes:

I agree, the = comparison to=20 Vichy France is even more apt. And there is nothing in your piece=20 immediately above I would disagree with.=20

Fuck!=20

We have such a servile mindset, at the level of our ruling = class, and=20 maybe even lower down in the class tree. About which I don't want = to even=20 think right now. It only makes me very angry. Like I've been = humiliated.=20 Like, ohhhh, maybe an Iraqi.

Frank,=20 2/23/2005 10:14:38 PM, writes:

On Balkanization, the = thing is, the=20 US is not going to turn into a bunch of little countries. Its just = not=20 going to happen anyway, anyhow, anytime.=20

So that leaves the current power imbalance between the current = US and=20 the current Canada. As provinces grow stronger in relation to the = central=20 government it will only increase the power imbalance as even = Ontario is=20 smaller than a united Canada.=20

So comparisons to the EU are invalid. More like post-Versailles = Austria's relationship with Germany. Shared history and language = and when=20 the mood struck the Germans, political annexation. Not even an = actual war,=20 just a done deal.=20

The Norwegian Quisling and other collaborators kept a low = profile=20 pre-WW2 whereas we seem to tolerate the traitors in our midst and = their=20 calls for our annexation. They even have their own party. But = unlike the=20 Bloc, the Conservatives shy away from publically saying they don't = think=20 Canada is a real country. Yet the people behind deep integration, = behind=20 the hand-over of our country to the same people that invaded us in = the=20 past are always conservative interest groups. They're Canadians = that=20 suffer from envy and self-loathing.

The REAL barking mad fox channel, 2/23/2005 = 10:38:00=20 PM, writes:

Coyote, it's the original = Star Wars=20 syndrome. Remember? The one that never pretended to be anything = other than=20 a fantasy space opera? "The more tightly you squeeze, Darth Vader, = the=20 more who will slip through your fingers!"

Bailey, 2/23/2005 11:29:05 PM, = writes:

I think the = central failure=20 in all this argument is the failure to embrace the inescapable = diversity=20 of humankind.=20

All I hear is either/or. Them or us. When clearly it's them AND = us.=20 Always has been. Always will be. It's the nature of humans that = they=20 differ widely on several planes and in several languages.=20

We say 'they' will do this or that, will force everyone into = the same=20 restrictive mold, and we resent it. Because, of course, whatever = mold=20 you're talking about, only a few will fit into it. Foxies Darth = Vader=20 quote is very apropos. The strongest, rigidest mold is also the = least=20 stable.=20

Like a pressure vessel without a safety valve, the volume of = the=20 resentment it holds will always come to exceed it's capacity, and = it will=20 always pop. The odd thing about this is that it looks strongest, = rigidest,=20 just before chaos ensues. Extreme intolerance is not a sign of = strength,=20 but of impending explosions.

If we want a stable society, we need one that tolerates = everybody.=20 There has to be business and enterprize, but those who favor = co-operative=20 life must have that opportunity as well. Without sanction. An = economy must=20 exist that can nourish absolutely everybody. Whether they can work = or not,=20 whether they are Capitalist, Socialist or Rhinoceros. Everybody.

The only alternative is oppression of the out-group leading to = chaos=20 sooner or later. Funnily enough, I seem to remember a Canada in my = youth=20 that was very tolerant, and also very prosperous, where even poor = people=20 could find a way to live together. What happened to that=20 Canada?

Fi, 2/23/2005 = 11:29:21 PM,=20 writes:

In re: to Ron's words "I = hope to=20 change Canada to something more conservative, similar to the USA"

Forget it, buddy. You are the kind of person I am talking = about- Canada=20 is NOT the US and never will be. When my dad immigrated here in = the 50's,=20 a young man of 19, he chose Canada over America for several = reasons. He=20 told me what those reasons were, and they haven't changed. I, too, = would=20 MUCH RATHER Canada join the EU than move ideologically closer to = the US.

tommymoore, 2/24/2005 = 9:55:30=20 AM, writes:

Sadly, we really are = nothing more=20 than a resource-supplying semi-sovereign state of the union. The=20 branch-plant status Canada enjoys allows massive profiteering by = American=20 megacorporate interests, inundates us with the United States' = culture of=20 greed and waste, and distinguishes us as Canadians not one whit = from the=20 seething, mindless mass of maggotry south of the 49th parallel. We = drive=20 the same cars (too much), eat the same (GM) foods, watch the same = TV,=20 exhort the same common religion ( money, profit, growth), and will = suffer=20 the same fate in a few short years as our friendly neighbour to = the south=20 collapses economically, socially, and environmentally. We should = be making=20 every effort to distance ourselves but alas, the Paul Martins and = Gordon=20 Campbells and Ralph Kleins of this country are intent on crawling = so far=20 up the ass of Dubya's empire I fear we will share the same fate. = Spelling=20 color with a "u" nothwithstanding.

I AM CANADIAN, 2/24/2005 9:58:22 AM,=20 writes:

Well well well!Fellow=20 Canadians.Follow the Iraqi example.They are treating the yanks = properly.So=20 we all know what to do when the facsist pigs come marching.I NEVER = want to=20 be fucking yank,or North American.If I am correct the death = penalty still=20 stands in Canada for treason? Onw way of getting rid of all the = business=20 trash.

, 2/24/2005 = 9:59:22 AM,=20 writes:

I AM CANADIAN, 2/24/2005 10:00:55 AM,=20 writes:

Well well well!Fellow=20 Canadians.Follow the Iraqi example.They are treating the yanks = properly.So=20 we all know what to do when the facsist pigs come marching.I NEVER = want to=20 be fucking yank,or North American.If I am correct the death = penalty still=20 stands in Canada for treason? Onw way of getting rid of all the = business=20 trash.

tommymoore, = 2/24/2005=20 10:21:07 AM, writes:

Wipe the spittle from = your keyboard=20 and take a pill for your double-posting delirium tremens. Oh, and = change=20 your handle there - that one's a trademark for Adolph Coors now = doncha=20 know. ("I Am = Canadian"=A9=99)☺☺☺

Ron=20 Erwin, 2/24/2005 10:59:13 AM, writes:

Fi; It's too bad your = father decided=20 to come to Canad rather than the USA. Your family probably would = have been=20 richer. Remember that the USA standard of living is 30% higher = than=20 Canada's.And the USA is much more democratic than here.=20

Dear tommygun, 2/24/2005 = 11:19:59=20 AM, writes:

I feel your pain, we all = do. But=20 pouring your bitterness and disappointment out all over the heads = of=20 people around you is considered bad form.

The biggest difference between Yanks and Canadians isn't = spelling. It's=20 that Americans have abandoned civility in their interpersonal = lives. They=20 see no need for politeness or courtesy. Canadians still do. At = least those=20 of us who don't have to deal with Americans too = much.

Coyote, 2/24/2005 12:50:49 PM, = writes:

Interesting = times, no=20 doubt.Eh?=20

In which it is the source of my hope. Interesting times are = more fluid=20 and immediately unpredictable. And one does hear the water = gurgling=20 beneath the snow's crust.=20

I always though the Chinese got it wrong really, in that bit = about=20 interesting times anyway. "May you be spared having to live = through=20 interesting times."=20

"Bring on the interesting times!" says I, whilst I still have = some=20 vigour left. They are really, really needed-, to separate all that = fucking=20 Quisling chaff from the wheat. :-)=20

Hey! The sun is out! Theres a trail through the bush and = meadows, I=20 want to see if it's open and I can get through it on my aluminium = steed.=20

Maybe catch yas later. My Lady is all gung-ho that we should = see=20 Finding Neverland this evening. I have my hesitations, but will do = all for=20 love.

djammer, 2/24/2005 = 1:34:16=20 PM, writes:

Ron, please explain just = how rich=20 Americans are again, with an average per capita debt of over 280 = thousand=20 American dollars. We as Canadians can't hold a candle to that at = just=20 $67,140. Canadian. I suppose you could blame it on your social = programs,=20 heallth care and all: or just good old fashioned American = Corporate=20 Greeeeed.

Simon, = 2/24/2005 2:59:05=20 PM, writes:

Remember, our business = class is human=20 too. Some people are more sinister than others, but I honestly = think that=20 our leading citizens have simply been coerced, much as the Romans=20 intermarried, co-opted the leaders of other people. Canadian = leaders are=20 genuinely scared of America, and it's a sad site to=20 see.

Ron Erwin, 2/24/2005 = 3:09:13=20 PM, writes:

djammer; In US dollars ( = funny this=20 how we all relate to value) per capita income in Canada is = $21,175.00. USA=20 is $33,385.00. Considering that they are allowed to deduct = mortgage=20 interest from thier taxes, it's no wonder that 70% of Americans = own their=20 own house. This compares to about 40% of Canadians. And they are = way more=20 democratic too. They also manage to defend Canada as well, at no = charge.=20 Can you imagine if we had to put this into Canada's budget ? How = would we=20 ever be able to pay for a universal daycare system. ( Dumb idea, = just give=20 families $3,00.00 per child to have a choice ) =

Frank, 2/24/2005 3:58:46 PM, = writes:

Who has America = defended us=20 against? Please cite any book you want as to when and where the = invasion=20 was, I must have missed it. I'm pretty sure the US wasn't saving = us in=20 1775, 1812-1814 or during the Fenian Raids.=20

America has only had a big military since 1942. Canada has only = reduced=20 its military since it became clear we weren't threatened anywhere. =

Also, straight US$ income comparisons fail to account for other = facts=20 and overstate others such as currency values. Canada places higher = than=20 the US in quality of life indexes and we live longer in spite of = spending=20 less on health care=20

But once again, both countries are pretty free. If you don't = like one,=20 you can move to the other. Its not like crossing the Iron Curtain. = Lots of=20 Americans have moved to Canada and lots of Canadians have moved to = the US.=20 Both countries are probably better off. The point is not dislike = of=20 America, its called loving Canada. Why cannot we simply be proud = of our=20 own country without the pro-US/anti-Cdn people getting all upset? = Poll=20 after poll shows that the majority of Canadians simply don't want = to be=20 part of the US. We have our own country and I believe anyone who = actively=20 works against our sovereignity is a traitor.

allan, 2/24/2005 4:01:53 PM, = writes:

Ron Erwin, just = who do you=20 envision attacking Canada that would lead you to the assumption we = need a=20 major defence program?

There is only one country with any reason to invade this = country, a=20 reality that hasn't changed from the late 1700s when it began = trying.

BTW, how many Americans have anything close to our medical = system?=20 Please don't trot out statements like America has the best = medicine in the=20 world. While there might be some technial truth in the statement, = it's a=20 crock of shit to most Americans who either can't afford anything = but the=20 basics or the 40 per cent who don't have any medical insurance.

Yes, the United States is a nice place to visit or even live if = you=20 have a bag full of money.

Saving your coins Ron?

Ron=20 Erwin, 2/24/2005 4:15:38 PM, writes:

allan; who would attck us = if we were=20 not defended by the USA ? Russia for one. I still don't trust = those guys,=20 do you? Or maybe even North Korea. The US will still protect us = anyway,=20 but it would be nice to show some appreciation. As far as our = medical=20 system goes, it's a joke. I can't wait intil it crashes and burns. = Public=20 Sector Unions make it impossible to work properly. The Americans = have=20 plenty of disposable income to pay for private insurance. Ever try = to use=20 our system Allan. It is disfunctional.

Peter Dimitrov, 2/24/2005 4:57:19 PM,=20 writes:

...none of the existing = federal or=20 provincial parties have the intent or courage to look at the = institutional=20 framework of our elitist Federal system which facilitates the = complete=20 sell-out of this country, seriously comprising our soverignty. I = propose=20 that: ...we need a new federal political party in Canada, perhaps = called=20 "The Canadian Soverignty Party". Secondly, The single most = important=20 element of its political platform is to submit to the people of = Canada,=20 one, clear referendum question, something like this draft = proposal:=20

"Do you favour the creation of a Constitutional Constituent = Assembly to=20 write a new constitution for Canada, members to which Assembly are = Canadian citizens elected by proportional representation." Then, = the=20 elected Constitutional Constituent Assemby debates and writes such = a=20 constituton, vesting soverignty in the people, putting in checks = &=20 balances, ensuring rights, re-distributing federal/provincial=20 jurisdictional competencies and taxation powers, etc. Vital to = this all,=20 is the equality of our three founding nations, French, English, = and First=20 Nations. (bcpolitics.ca) ...otherwise, with the existing = dysfunctional=20 constitutional frame and inherited bureaucratic institutions of = senior=20 civil servants ...there is not, in my view, a hope in hell this = country=20 will survive as a soverign nation. .

Frank, 2/24/2005 5:02:34 PM, = writes:

Gee, you should = check out the=20 story in today's US Today. The US health care system spends more = than ours=20 and in fact could soon hit 19% of GNP. Texas says health costs = will=20 bankrupt their state. The US healthcare system will collapse = before ours=20 ever does.=20

As for the richness of our southern neighbour, did you catch = the effect=20 of South Korea talking about their prospects in regards to = purchasing US$?=20 Seems to have rocked the markets until they issued a statement = saying they=20 weren't going to sell US$. The US economy is living on other = people's=20 money right now.

Frank, = 2/24/2005=20 5:04:39 PM, writes:

As for the threat from = Russia and=20 North Korea, they can't even invade their neighbours, the Ukraine = and=20 South Korea. Where would NK get the ships to invade us? Probably = the same=20 place Saddam purchased his WMDs.

Peter Dimitrov, 2/24/2005 5:17:49 PM,=20 writes:

...one oil starts trading = in Euros,=20 and China dumps its US currency reserves in favor of diversifying = its=20 currency holdings, the US dollar will sink like a stone, and our = loonie,=20 tied as it is, to that sinking ship, will plummet too. With the US = dollar=20 no longer the world's trading currency...the Americans will not be = able to=20 afford to keep its world-wide military bases, ...and this doesn't = even=20 discuss Bush's fiscal failures which are absolutely bankrupting = the US,=20 along with the foreign policies failures. So lets not hitch our = 'star' to=20 a 'sinking ship'.

Coyote, = 2/24/2005=20 5:48:20 PM, writes:

Ron Erwin is a total = Yankee ass=20 kissing wannabe bootlicker. No point even taking this Doofus = seriously.=20 He's the pathetic caricature of just another Yankee wannabe, = ashamed of=20 what he is-, not yet realizing that they are already on the = downhill slope=20 to a Has Been.=20

But then, once he finally realizes it, he'll just start casting = around=20 for another Sugar Daddy to wipe his ass after he butt fucks = it.He's one of=20 a sorry ass, traitorous type found near = everywhere.

B. Thompson, 2/24/2005 6:04:29 PM,=20 writes:

It seems abundantly clear = to me that=20 Canada should distance itslef economically and politically from = the U.S.=20 as quickly as posssible. We need to reinstate 50% national = ownership and=20 start trading with countries in the EU and Central and South = America. Hey=20 and while were're at it why don't we all get together and let the = US know,=20 in no uncertain terms that we do not support the war in Iraq. In = fact, we=20 are adamantly against it and we want the U.S. to get out now! As = for Bush=20 and Rumsfeld they belong in the World Court.I am sick and tired of = mealy=20 mouthed politicians who continue to have diplomatic relations with = these=20 maniacs. They are war criminals and should be treated as=20 such.

Frank, 2/24/2005 = 6:20:15 PM,=20 writes:

Besides giving the = traitor class one=20 way tickets to Texas, bring back FIRA I say! Toss out NAFTA and = work on=20 increasing trade with economies like China, Japan, India and the = rest of=20 Asia and Latin America. I don't want to be paying 20% on my = mortgage when=20 the euro replaces the dollar in central bank vaults. =

lynn, 2/24/2005 7:00:12 PM, = writes:

Frank, you make = an excellent=20 point when you say that historically "collaborators have kept a = low=20 profile pre-WW2 whereas we seem to tolerate the traitors in our = midst and=20 their calls for our annexation. They even have their own party."

The Bloc at least is honest in its intention. The subterfuge of = the=20 Conservative party, it's pretensions of loyalty, should be = shocking. Where=20 is the outrage? I agree, the Conservatives under Mulroney, now = under=20 Harper, don't really like this country. They have just never = thought=20 Canada was quite good enough. Not quite jazzy enough for them and=20 ironically, at the same time just too liberal, too unpuritanical. = They=20 don't like being Canadian. They never admit this publically but = all the=20 political body language is there.

The question is why we are we allowing a Quisling party to = exist in our=20 midst at all? Unless, even treason, just like all other products = of the=20 advertising industry, has been sold to the Canadian public through = a=20 complicit and compromised media. Such a sophisticated, = persuasively soft=20 sell waged day after day against the sovereignty of this country.

And again that is a very good point, Frank, that they are = "Canadians=20 that suffer from envy and self-loathing." They seem to reflect a=20 psychological type that does not like themselves.

They should just leave. Their feelings of inferiority are = destroying=20 this country. The rest of us know we have a damn fine country = worth=20 fighting for.

Ron Y, = 2/24/2005=20 8:20:33 PM, writes:

Are we known by the = company we keep,=20 ideologically? I merely ask because one of the most able advocates = of=20 protectionist anti-integration -- he calls it economic nationalism = -- is=20 Pat Buchanan.

Nationalist,=20 2/25/2005 12:52:31 AM, writes:

Those dirty FUCKERS!!!! = sorry I don't=20 like to sware on on here cus it makes one sound well ya know, If = anything=20 we should be arming our selfs. I'm not a violent person but the = american=20 corporate machine is. Each and every Canadian has to resist this = any way=20 possible if some of us stoped acceping american money or refuse to = give an=20 exchange rate. write angry letters flooding every MLA's office = with 10=20 e-mails a day per person to your local MLA they might get = scared...Wise=20 move for Martin to reject the missle defence, far too much like = the=20 beaumark missle flop in the late 50s and early 60s Canada should = have=20 stuck with the avro project but pressure from the americans and = the GOD=20 DAMN AMERICAN freindly pressive Conservatives, opressive more like = it=20 decided to not build our own fighter jets and let the americans = look after=20 us cus the yanks didn't want canada to be powerful and probably = for this=20 reason we just read about here. Canada made the first jet airliner = not the=20 yanks. this news is not good at all and i'm so enraged by this I = can't=20 express how much I hate those globalist bastards that want to = start by=20 brainwashing our young this is very fascist reminds me of a story = about=20 someone known as Hitler.

stikine,=20 2/25/2005 3:40:38 AM, writes:

i think the people who = live on the=20 first nations land known as canada had better wake the fuck up = real fast.=20 america is not going to go away. it is a sick civilisation, = nothing is=20 going to stop it except ecological collapse, nukes, or total = revolution.=20 boycott america, dont be afraid to tell them to fuck off when you = see=20 those washington SUVs. This is our reality here, it is going to = turn into=20 chaos. we have to do what we can.

Ron Erwin, 2/25/2005 8:17:34 AM, = writes:

Cayote and = B.Thompson; You=20 are naive about the compassionate power of the USA. Remember, this = is the=20 land of the strong, free and brave. We are the land of pussies. = Canada is=20 an under-acheiving country. Europe is a basket case of socialism = and=20 bloated beurocracy. I don't claim the USA is perfect, but it's our = pleasure to be associated with the bastards. Please don't try to = tell me=20 that we should be part of the EU. This would be a true=20 disaster.

Frank, = 2/25/2005 8:42:36=20 AM, writes:

No data, no citations, no = history,=20 just wrap yourself in the flag of Fox News. = Huzzah!

djammer, 2/25/2005 9:32:33 AM, = writes:

When the masses = go against=20 the policies of the neo-Con, neo-liberal agenda (and I can=92t = tell the=20 difference), we need to be educated of our true values: we need to = become=20 aware of our true wants through advertising, through coercion, and = they=20 are good at it. In fact, the money, the corporations behind them = are=20 experts in the field and they do it daily on a worldwide basis. I = fear=20 greatly, the encroachment of corporate interests into our = education system=20 with a continent wide curriculum: and of course brought to you by = an=20 American Corporation instilling their views, values, customs, and=20 propaganda into our young and vulnerable minds. Where and when = better to=20 instill an American slant into our children, blinding them to the=20 atrocities committed by their leaders, and sheltered from judgment = by a=20 world court by shear might. In addition, it is an insult on = =93democracy=94 to=20 site the US as a model for democracy. Are you blind, or is it = simple=20 brainwashing? You are run by the corporate interest, for the = corporate=20 interest, and picking up the tab, and just because your = corporations can=20 pillage the world for its resources, defended by your sorry butt = under a=20 tin hat, you hail this as democracy. I am sorry! I want no part of = it, and=20 rejection is the most pitiful state.

Frank, 2/25/2005 9:33:04 AM, = writes:

But kudos on = the envy and=20 self-loathing, that's pretty obvious. Might as well say the Wilson = is=20 better than the Spalding J5V too.

djammer, 2/25/2005 10:59:32 AM, = writes:

frankie, don't = mistake loathe=20 as envy. It is about our ability to govern ourselves without undue = influence form the US and their corporations: sovereignty, = democracy,=20 ruled by our own citizens; something of foreign concept maybe. And = what=20 does your particular brand of hockey stick have to do with=20 it?

Frank, 2/25/2005 = 11:13:47 AM,=20 writes:

Hey dj, I was referencing = footballs,=20 the CFL used to use the J5-V.=20

Anyway, my comment was referring to Ron's post, your post = arrived 30=20 seconds before mine is all. Guess you thought I was referring to = you.=20

allan, 2/25/2005 = 11:17:07 AM,=20 writes:

Ron Erwin, despite the = creeping=20 profit-skimming of our "public" health system by privateers and = their=20 lackies,I still have more faith in our system than a would in the=20 greed-determined health treatment process south of the border.

I am just amazed how bitter and twisted you are about Canada's = more=20 progressive social practices, which put the priority on humans = rather than=20 the dollar.

I am now convinced that you are one of those Canadians who = enjoy an=20 extremely good life in Canada, but are so petty and bitter about = being on=20 the fringes of popular opinion, that you are ready to deny the = basics to=20 needy children just to prove you can.

Quit being a hypocrite. Chase after your heart, which appears = to have=20 gone south long ago.

djammer,=20 2/25/2005 12:15:55 PM, writes:

sorry frank, I thought = that you had=20 turned your coat. It is still an ambiguous statement, but I will = try=20 again. Oh, and I thought it was golf, but didn't want to appear = ignorant,=20 stupid is OK though, it is voluntary, and I prefer it as there is = a cure.=20 :-)

Bullshit detector., = 2/25/2005=20 12:39:12 PM, writes:

Ron Erwin isn't a=20 Canadian.

blando, = 2/25/2005 2:42:23=20 PM, writes:

Nationalist, 2/25/2005 2:51:27 PM,=20 writes:

WE KNOW ALL TO WELL THE = SO CALLED=20 compassionate power of the USA. just ask those countries that got = fuck=20 over by American Corprate fuckers!!! and I also lothe the = statement=20 Canadians are pussys.. Fuck you!! go to the USA assholes that say = that=20 shit!!! Canadians are Mean fighter when we are pushed... I guess = we forgot=20 the First world war where canda achieved many victorys The somme = Vimmy to=20 name a couple. Second world war canada was engaged in battle when = the=20 fucking americans were giving money to fucking hitler but that = stopped=20 just before the US entered the war!!! The Bltiz in London Canadian = fighter=20 pilots preformed amazing feats of courage, oh and how about = sicily??=20 americans took credit for that too when canadians were first in. = Normandy=20 where canadians fortified all of its objectives and yes were first = in as=20 well.. do some fucking reading before making statements like=20 = that.................................................http://www.vac-a=20 = cc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=3Dhistory................................= .....................................................=20 Ron Erwin, 2/25/2005 8:17:34 AM, writes: Cayote and B.Thompson; = You are=20 naive about the compassionate power of the USA. Remember, this is = the land=20 of the strong, free and brave. We are the land of pussies. Canada = is an=20 under-acheiving country. Europe is a basket case of socialism and = bloated=20 beurocracy. I don't claim the USA is perfect, but it's our = pleasure to be=20 associated with the bastards. Please don't try to tell me that we = should=20 be part of the EU. This would be a true disaster. AssHole!!!!=20

blando, 2/25/2005 = 2:59:48 PM,=20 writes:

sorry `bout the double = post folks.

i`d like to address mr. erwins comment saying that canadians = are a=20 bunch of pussies. this is a common comment from ignorant = conservatives=20 whom think that if we`re not out and about the world kicking the = shit out=20 of little nations who have oil or grow fruit and coffee, we must = be=20 cowards.

well, my step father and thousands of wwII vets may beg to = differ. and=20 shame on you sir for forgeting the sacrifices they made. a coward = does not=20 join up and go off to a war where there is a possibility of no = return. my=20 step father was on the beaches on d-day, and he was shot in the = head and=20 thankfully survived. a real pussie i guess. i think about him all = the time=20 , and the things he has told me about the reasons why he went to = england.=20 he did it because he and the guys that went with him thought they = were=20 going to change the world into a better place. that was the = sacrifice they=20 were willing to make, for us. and it brings me a great deal of = pain when i=20 realize that those sacrifices were in vain. the world is no better = now.=20 you are an ignorant little man erwin. and not worth my step = fathers=20 sacrifice.

B. Thompson, = 2/25/2005=20 3:18:37 PM, writes:

No Ron, I'm sorry I think = you are=20 naive. The US is going downhill fast. The only thing that is = keeping it's=20 economy afloat is the fact that the US dollar is the currency of = exchange.=20 Once the Euro takes over or China gets tired of propping up the US = debt it=20 will be the end of the US supremacy . What we are witnessing today = is a=20 desperate last gasp to hold on to power through war and = destruction. They=20 may have more weapons than the rest of the world put together but = that=20 does not legitimize what they are doing in Iraq or what they are = thinking=20 of doing in Iran. The business elite in Canada are dreaming if = they think=20 that deep integration with US would be good for Canada. If we need = trading=20 partners then let them be countries who understand the meaning of=20 consensus and cooperation. And yes, those countries do=20 exist.

lynn, 2/25/2005 = 3:42:19 PM,=20 writes:

I agree, Nationalist. Ron = Erwin you=20 should take out a library card and read some Canadian history - or = better=20 still go to some of the small towns in France and Holland where = Canadian=20 soldiers are hailed as heroes, monuments stand in honour of their = courage,=20 where men, women, even small children still crowd the streets = sixty years=20 later in order to thank the visiting Canadian veterans of war.

Really, you should just leave, you do seem to belong in a = country where=20 it's President forfeits critical defensive action against a major=20 terrorist attack so he can finish reading My Pet = Goat.

Usa citizen, 2/25/2005 8:04:12 PM,=20 writes:

Annex Canada! It = should'nt exist=20 anyways, its a joke. It was meant to be part of the us in the = first lace,=20 the only reason it exists is because stupid loyalist of the = revolution=20 deny the fact they are american and rather side with cheese eating = frogs=20 in Quebec!

Nationalist., = 2/25/2005=20 11:23:32 PM, writes:

OK Usa citizen or Ron = Erwin who ever=20 you call your self now. for one, it was the Americans that got = support=20 from France in the revolution, If you were American you would know = that..=20 ohh wait...Americans hardly know what the capital of their own = country=20 is...If it wasn't for the cheese eating frogs the American = Revolution out=20 come may have been different hell if it wasn't for the French = helping u=20 block heads we might have had All of the great lakes. Does = Yorktown,=20 Virginia mean anything to you USA citizen?? During the 20-day = seige,=20 16,000 French and American soldiers closed in on the 8000-man = British=20 force. The redcoats surrendered on October 19, 1781. Usa citizen,=20 2/25/2005 8:04:12 PM, writes: Annex Canada! It should'nt exist = anyways,=20 its a joke. It was meant to be part of the us in the first lace, = the only=20 reason it exists is because stupid loyalist of the revolution deny = the=20 fact they are american and rather side with cheese eating frogs in = Quebec!=20

Cheese?, 2/26/2005 = 9:55:57 AM,=20 writes:

Scuse me, I don't mean to = interrupt=20 such deep insightful philosophy, but I feel I should point out = that frogs=20 don't eat cheese. Frogs eat bugs, mostly, except for those Cane = Toads who=20 seem to eat ping pong balls and mice. I saw it on TV. But no = cheese.=20

I think your metaphor might be a bit crumbly. And sort of = smelly.=20

Wait! I think I figured out where the cheese in your post came = from!=20 The whole post is made of it!

In fact, it's the cheesiest post I've seen for a long=20 time.

Nationalist, = 2/26/2005=20 7:57:53 PM, writes:

Yes and Bullfrogs also = eat small=20 birds

allan, 2/26/2005 = 11:00:50 PM,=20 writes:

Nationalist, I take great = offence=20 with "the only reason it exists is because stupid loyalists of the = revolution deny the fact they are American and rather side with = the cheese=20 eating frogs in Quebec."

Pardon the expression, but your grasp on Canada-U.S. history = seems=20 appalling.=20

Your reference to "stupid loyalists" insults many of my = ancestors,=20 besides being rather bizarre.

But what I find worst is your bigoted and hateful treatment of = people=20 who are no doubt better Canadians than you will ever be.

Citizens of Lower Canada and subsequently Quebec fought and = died=20 defending against U.S. incursions during the U.S. revolution and = in=20 1812-14.

You are a quite good example of what many people tread when = someone=20 takes a "Nationalist's" point of view.

Confusing, 2/26/2005 11:27:26 PM,=20 writes:

Actually, Nationalist is = quoting Usa=20 citizen's reference to "stupid loyalist's " in the post above his. = The=20 quote is not his, he's as offended by it as you,=20 allan.

allan, 2/27/2005 = 9:53:36 AM,=20 writes:

Nationalist, I apologize = for my=20 statement, which should have been vented at USa citizen.

Thank you Confusing for pointing out the error of my rant.

A double dose of ire for USa citizen.

Perhaps I ought to stay off this site late night after an = indulgance or=20 two. Please excuse me as I try to pull both shoes out of my mouth. =

Cheese, 2/27/2005 = 11:46:41 AM,=20 writes:

Aw, don't even mention = it. Chewing=20 our Adidas in the wee hours is a sort of tradition around here.=20

I suspect that inserting both of his feet into his mouth at = midnight=20 was what made that Nationalist think about cheese so much.=20

The bad thing about this format is that it's kind of = conversational,=20 not too much time to consider responses to other people's ideas = and=20 remarks. The good thing is, it fosters humility when we have to=20 acknowledge that on further consideration, maybe we were just the=20 slightest bit, well, wrong. Never neglect to acknowledge that, = when it=20 happens, as it does to everybody.=20

It's kind of neat to be able to watch the evolution of ideas = and even=20 convictions on this site. That only happens when people are = willing to=20 have their minds changed by evidence and argument and reason.=20

Not everybody is. Only the best ones.

Cheesy, 2/27/2005 11:51:19 AM, = writes:

As evidence, I = offer my own=20 blunder. I should have said Usa citizen. Not=20 Nationalist.

Nationalist, = 2/27/2005=20 12:00:51 PM, writes:

Allen it's Ok my post are = confusing=20 sometimes. And cheesy no worries I thought you were refering to = USA=20 citizen as well...lol next time i will make others quotes a little = easier=20 to read. And you are right frogs don't eat = cheese

Nationalist, 2/27/2005 12:06:21 PM,=20 writes:

PS I would have corrected = you=20 respectfully if Confusing didn't Because you are a Good canadian = and share=20 the same passion I have for our country Let the flames=20 begin!!!

Confusing as = Cleese,=20 2/27/2005 12:07:04 PM, writes:

Okay, this is getting = like a Monty=20 Python skit, Nationalist did not make the cheese remark, USa = citizen did.=20 Nationalist is just using a confusing format by quoting it at the = end of=20 his post. Bullfrogs he mentioned, but absolutely no cheese. Not = havarti,=20 cheddar, bleu, edam, monterey jack, mozzarella,=20 brie...

Confusing as = Cleese,=20 2/27/2005 12:12:18 PM, writes:

Oops! I see, I, too have = blundered,=20 Cheesy. Didn't see your post to Nationalist when I posted mine. = Sorry.=20 Anyone for fondue?

Spud, = 2/27/2005=20 4:05:57 PM, writes:

There is too much world = out there for=20 Canada and Canadians to worry about the usa.Lets go for=20 it.China,Cuba,Brazil,India,Pakistan,Argentina,and how many more?As = for=20 those who think the usa is so good you are free to leave ya=20 know.

Spud, 2/27/2005 = 4:07:24 PM,=20 writes:

There is too much world = out there for=20 Canada and Canadians to worry about the usa.Lets go for=20 it.China,Cuba,Brazil,India,Pakistan,Argentina,and how many more?As = for=20 those who think the usa is so good you are free to leave ya=20 know.

Nationalist, = 2/27/2005=20 5:26:23 PM, writes:

Spud, Lets hope you are = right! but=20 the "lets go for it" statement is confusing to me, do you mean = lets go for=20 it join the USA? I hope not, that would be truley sad if this did = happen.=20 I would urge parents to watch like a hawk what kind of tripe they = putting=20 into your kids heads at school and look at the homework they = assign them=20 and be hostile about it to your local school boards if you think = that what=20 is being taught is even close to what this article is suggesting, = It's in=20 our hands now our govenments only represend the ones with the most = money=20 the rest of us are slaves and we don't matter to them but if = enough people=20 act hostile they have no choice but to change but the change will = be a=20 hard fight but anything worth keeping comes at a price. The thing = that=20 worries me and many other nationalists is canada has too much to = offer the=20 US for them to ignore such as OIL,Water,Uranium, Timber, the list = goes on=20 the other countries that spud mentioned has too little to offer = the US and=20 its full of civil problems that would make very difficult to = control. The=20 US does not want to fight China the US would crumble with the = amount of=20 military resouse and man power it has, canada however has roads = industry=20 and so on that makes The US think Humm grass looks greener up = north lets=20 corupt them with wall mart cosco so that their standard drops to = non=20 exsitance then they will be a sleep in their cheap crap world and = welcome=20 us with open arms and have no clue how they got screwed....that is = just a=20 thought but its hard to not to think that way when Canada was = about a #4=20 world power untill the conservitives came into power around the = late 50s=20 and were all like oh sure what ever you like IKE yes sir! how far = should=20 we bend over sir!

Spud, = 2/27/2005=20 9:49:21 PM, writes:

Sorry for not being = clear.I mean lets=20 trade with the rest of the world,open up for business with South=20 America.Why business and government are infatuated with the US is = beyond=20 me.There is so much more out there for Canada to do and be a part=20 of.Getting our economy away from theirs and making it more = diversified is=20 the right move,as the American economy is in = TROUBLE.

Canadian First, 2/28/2005 11:40:01 AM,=20 writes:

New here but what a great = site! I'm=20 living on the prairies, but born in BC. Spud, you are right on. We = have=20 had all our eggs in one american basket far too long, and should = be avidly=20 developing new markets. We produce raw materials and finished = products=20 second to none and I don't for the life of me see why we should be = handcuffed to Uncle Sam as our major trading partner, especially = with the=20 regime they have in the whitehouse. They profess to be our = greatest friend=20 all the while screwing us every chance they get. All I can say is = enough=20 already!

Steve O, = 2/28/2005 4:08:54=20 PM, writes:

I thought we already were = giving away=20 our sovereignty as a nation. When we have to ask the Americans to = move=20 Canadian troops within our own country as happened during the = Manitoba=20 floods ten years ago, then I woudl say we've already pretty much = become a=20 puppet state. So as far as integration with the US, both the = short-sighted=20 lefties and right wing yankee wannabe types have significantly = undermined=20 the sovereignty of our nation.

Sharon, 2/28/2005 9:27:54 PM, = writes:

If you want a = sovereign=20 Canada - if you want a coherent nation - you had better start = educating=20 your children. The first thing an enemy wants is your = communication=20 systems (including culture), then infiltrate the army/police = (Texas=20 troopers & RCMP, US immigration officers in Canada, etc.), and = finally, get rid of intellectuals (defined as those who disagree = and are=20 articulate). Another method of watering down the opposition is to = offer=20 money - either via corporations/jobs, etc. - or the brain drain. = Let's=20 face it, we are in the middle of a war to keep our own country - = we just=20 haven't the guts to charge and imprison the traitors - starting = with Prime=20 Ministers.

Cathy, = 2/28/2005 9:46:00=20 PM, writes:

I have read the above = comments.=20 Delete the anger, fellas. Do that in the pub. Now, do some = homework,=20 Canadians. Educate yourselves on all the issues and get out to = VOTE - get=20 those traitors out of office. Then, boycott their=20 businesses/corporations/media relations. And maybe working harder = at=20 finding other trading partners and becoming more resourceful = ourselves=20 just might win the war - because, like Sharon, I believe we are in = it=20 right now. Fellas, where is your Stanley Cup? The war started the = day you=20 gave it up for grabs!

kenmo,=20 3/1/2005 2:47:34 AM, writes:

This story needs to hit = the=20 mainstream media (I know... in my dreams). But it would be great = to see it=20 as a CBC special report or something...

Truman Green, 3/1/2005 8:39:21 PM,=20 writes:

Steve O. I wonder if you = could expand=20 that story of Canadians asking permision of Americans to move = Canadian=20 troops within Canada. That's pretty intriguing, alright. = Unfortunately, I=20 missed that story.